What is legal lethal force?

[philliptwyford]

This is a question that was posed to me by a Friend of mine. To be honest I was not 100% sure as to how does the law look on what is self defence and what is unecessary force.

Does anyone have any opinions as to how you should handle a situation should you have to defend yourself and cause injury to a would be attacker? Do you hang around and call the police, ambulence etc or do you make yourself scarce?

Thanks
Phillip

[Deleted]

Hi Phil, great thread to start.
This is an ongoing debate in martial arts and law. Can we class our bodies as lethal weapons? Is it any different when an experienced martial artist fights back compared to anyone else? If so, what degree of martial arts training classifies you to be in this category? There will be sevral different answers to each.
This is going to be a long post, so I'll try to keep it simple.

Basically, the law on this is hazy. There is no regulation that I've ever heard of that stipulates that a martial artist is any more responsible for what happens in a self defence situation than anyone else. There have been, however, cases where a martial artist has been found responsible for, and punished more severely for, 'fight' situations in court-by judges and jurys.

The most significant one I've heard of (although it may be an urban myth) is where a black belt was attacked with a knife, and he ended up stabbing, or doing some harm to the attacker with the knife. Apparently the judge gave him the most severe penalty possible, because he should have used his martial arts experience to control himself more-ie not hurt his attacker.
This seems a bit unfair, and highlights the illusions most people are under about martial arts. Not every black belt is smart, not every black belt is even GOOD at martial arts. The requirement for a black belt is different in every club-learning to 'control' a self defence situation may not even feature.
Also, If I'm in a life or death situation, I can't worry about anyone else but ME or I'll probably die. Which brings me on to my next point:

ANY self defence situation should be considered POTENTIALLY LETHAL. To illustrate this I have another example (and this I know to be 100% true.) Two men had an argument in Temple Bar some years ago. One pushed the other, who fell on a cobblestone and died. He hit his head on a the ground. This was just a push.
So ANYONE has the potential to do this damage. If I'm attacked, I'm not prepared to take a risk on what my attackers intensions are. If I have to defend myself, I will do so by any and every means possible. The smart thing to do is make sure you don't get hurt initially, then make sure you won't be attacked again- any way possible. If someone attacks you, they won't hesitate to hurt you. Why hesitate in defending yourself and risk your own health/life?

To respond directly to your questions in the first post Phil, this is my answer.
If I have to cause an injury to an attacker to insure my safety, I will, with no qualms. However, I will always try to avoid this- (cross the road, run away, give your phone and money etc... It's only money).
As for sticking around, no. Simply because most people who attack others, eg muggers, have sevral friends operating close by as 'security'. I wouldn't stick around for them to show up, I'd sprint as fast as I could to the nearest safe place, even if that means running home, or into a shop or a police station.
Call an ambulence? If you want. I'd say someone else would do it if you were near a public place, but if not I don't see why not. As long as you make sure you're safe first.
Call the police? This is tricky. I'd probably say yes to most cases, as you're always in the right if you're attacked. However, this can lead to unwanted complications/hassle. Still, you won't come off badly if you make it clear that you had to defend yourself. Most muggers and attackers will be known by the police for previous crimes-it's not often that someone with no background in crime just picks on people.

Wow that was long. I'm in essay writing mode you see. If you made it through I hope you have your own opinion, these are only my views, and I'm sure they're flawed.

You can see why I think it's a good thread now.

[philliptwyford]

Hi Colm,

Great reply. Ye this is an interesting topic. Personally I have never been in a situation where I was physically threatened but my training has made me more street aware so that I am always watching what is going on around me so that I can cross the street or ensure I don't get caught in a problematic situation. As I told Rob before I have had recent problems with someone showing threatening behaviour but it was more goading type nonsense and I turned the other cheek so to speak and the person in question has lost interest. If I had gotten into this persons face I reckon though he would be more happy to compain to the Garda.

[johngolden]

Hey Phil,

Ya its a really good thread too start. Ya as colm said, i think the line is very vague and in a lot of the circumstances i'd have the very same opinions as him, but we do have our own thoughts on this. i dont think that the guards think there is much of a line between self defense and attack in this country. if they see two people fighting for whatever reason, it'l be the both of you that will be locked up.

About 3 years ago i was attacked in sligo, Completely unprovolked (spelt Wrong). i was in my car and stopped at traffic lights and this "ScumBag" (Apologies about the name reference but its all it was) came up to the car opened the door and started throwing punches in at me. he was shoutin something not sure what. I was covering my face and getting out of the car throwing a few kicks too get him away, when a guard came over and started tellin me how he was going to arrest me for fighting in the street.I explained the whole situtation too him and my sister in the car said it too and all he said was get out of my sight before i arrest you, all of this over someone attacking me.

So from my own experience i wouldn't wait around for the guards, if it happens that you injure your opponent, ya i'd call an ambulance but i wouldn't hang around. i know it might seem inhumane or what not but with the laws in this country i don't think that it is right that a completely innocent person should get in trouble or get a record for defending themselves.
As colm said my views could be completely flawed but can only talk from experience.

This is a really good thread.

[philliptwyford]

Hey John,

Thanks for the response. Yes it does provoke alot of discussion and there have been so many debates over people being able to protect there property etc. A car jack type of attack as you suffered is very much on the increase and I now keep all the door locked. People call me paranoid but your experience is something I would not like to have happen.

I do think that if you can get an escape route or avoid a situation that this is the best course of action but of course if you have no alternative then you have to protect yourself, your family etc.

I suppose the next question to add to this thread and sub strand would be how much force is acceptable? Do you protect yourself to the point that the would be attacker is injured and you can get an escape or do you you drop them to a state of incapacity?

I guess situaction dictates. If a guy pulls knife is it fair to assume its kill or be killed when comparing against a guy just throwing a few digs?

Thanks John and Colm for your views so far and glad you like this thread.

Cheers
Phillip

[Deleted]

YO... Good call. I would agree with the above.. I knew a guy that got a choice of 2years or £20,000 fine from a judge for throwing a head butt(in a self defence situation) it was put down as excessive force, if it was a punch it wouldn't of been as bad. He had no martial arts expierience. Colm. relax with the essay college buzz. no-meen.

[Pete]

Great post from Colm. And i totally agree what he said, no need for me to write essay ;D
Well this is little bit offtopic. But how u deal situations with violent woman. Cos u really dont wanna go "full force" against them. and simple hold or takedown isnt good option in public places, cos theres always about ten knights who wanna defend miss treated woman, if u do that.

-Pentti K.

[dkidd]

Hi Guys ,
Yeah good post. Legal lethal force varies from country to country and sometimes from state to state. here are too conflicting definitions. The law states that one can only use enough force as is necessary to extricate oneself from the attack i.e. enough to get away from an attack but not to exact revenge.
But Bruce Lee on the subject famously replied,
'It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six'.

I'm with Bruce on that one.

[Deleted]

Hi again.

Phil- I'm in a similar boat, since I started martial arts, I've never gotten in a fight. There was one incident when I was punched by a guy wearing a cast (The cast hand hit me). It took all of my effort, but I did just leave. That's what martial arts has taught me to do more than anything.
I wouldn't say it's paranoid to lock the car door when you're in it- you do it with the house, right?

John- It's scumbags like the guy who pulled you out of the car that really annoy me. They're the reason you can't walk through town at night, or trust others to let you live your life in public. And I also agree that a lot of the time guards can be unhelpful. It looks like that guard was just trying to end the situation as soon as possible, not necessarily to sort it out.

The thing about the law is that no one is ever 100% in the right in any situation. If you get the law involved in an incident, you don't know how you can be seen. It seems that instinct reactions can sometimes be considered as intenstonal acts.

Declan- Bang on. That's a brilliant quote from bruce. He's more than just a stuntman alright.